Wednesday, February 27, 2013

City Place - Still Crappy After all These Years

Apologies for the delay, but here are the final results of the Silver Spring Hater's Poll. My goal for this was to quantify the complaints of commenter/readers to determine what the real top gripes were about Silver Spring and whether certain complaints have been overrepresented in the comment section.

City Place (aka "Shitty Place") 42%
The Transit Center fiasco 11%
There’s no nightlife 9%
Unruly teenagers on Ellsworth 9%
The Whole Foods parking lot 7%
It’s all chain restaurants 6%
I’m stuck here when I really want to live in Bethesda or Clarendon 4%
Too many Ethiopian restaurants 3%
The downtown McDonald’s 3%
Other 3%
Piratz Tavern 2%
All changes to Silver Spring after 1950 1%
Overzealous DTSS security guards 0%
I will have to cross the street to get to the new library 0%
The skate park is too small 0% 

In the end, it wasn't even close - it's Shitty Place by a mile. City Place has sucked ever since it opened way back when, and it's only gotten worse in the intervening years. At least it used to have a movie theater that for a time was reasonably serviceable (former employee here). Now it has nothing. We keep hearing grand plans about the upcoming revitalization of City Place, but in the end, it's all just vaporware.

Finishing a distant second was the sad joke that is our unfinished Transit Center. Unlike City Place, at least I can envision that issue being resolved in my lifetime.

In a tie for third were the popular "Lack of Nightlife" complaint and the oldie-but-goodie "Unruly Teenagers on Ellsworth". Is the latter even still A Thing? I remember when that there would regular reports of verbal assaults or brawls, but it's been years since I've heard a peep. Maybe I just don't get out at night enough these days and I'm oblivious.

(Also, my apologies for not including "NIMBYs" as an option. Major oversight on my part.)


Anonymous said...

Shallal is an idiot.

Rebecca said...

The company that owns Shitty Place is obviously just sitting on it, waiting for the economy to take off. Why put any capital into improving it when you can simply wait a few years and then make a big profit for doing nothing?

I'm generally skeptical of eminent domain in the name of economic development but this may be one case where I might support it.

Craig said...

Andy Shallal gave a big fuck you to Montgomery County, didn't he? His next Busboys and Poets investment will be in the heart of Takoma Park, DC. So physically close to the Maryland state line but so far away in perception.

So because Lockheed Martin is HQ'ed in Montgomery County and the county has offered incentives for Lockheed to remain in the county, Shallal publicly stated he would not open a business in a jurisdiction that supports the war business. Fair enough.

But Andy Shallal plants a Busboys & Poets Flag in the Shirlington District of Arlington, VA. Arlington, Virginia which is home to the Pentagon (US Department of Defense)! Arlington, VA which has tons of defense contractors in its Roslyn and Crystal City office buildings. Contractors like Boeing, EADS, CACI and more. Trust me, the Death and Violence Industry is far more vibrant in Northern Virginia than in Montgomery County, MD.

This is pure smokescreen stuff. Maybe Shallal doesn't want to open a place in Montgomery County because he is afraid that Montgomery County's progressive environment might force eateries to pay their employees a living wage with full health care insurance benefits. God forbid if he has to pay dishwashers a $14/hour wage. Perhaps restaurant workers might find a friendlier place to unionize in Maryland as opposed to a staunch "Right-to-Work" state like Virginia. Basically, in DC and Virginia, Shallal can get away with more shit against labor rights than in Maryland. This is a guess on my part.

Some "progressive" business man.

Gull said...

Confused why we're talking about the Busboys and Poets in this article, when that was part of the previous post (though made nearly at the same time).

Maybe unruly teenagers was not the best way to phrase the problem on Ellsworth Drive, but on the weekends in general I avoid the area in the afternoon and evening. The entire socio-economic demographic changes, and it's full of people of all ages, races and cultures who are not conducting themselves well in public, being inconsiderate and generally unpleasant with the way they block sidewalks, speak with vulgar language and amass in large groups, especially with how crowded the downtown' area can be. Call me what you will, but I'd rather stay in, or go over to Bethesda where a different, better behaved group, hangs out on the weekend (and no I did not vote for i'd rather live there). It's much less of an issue during the week, probably due to working schedules, a lingering daytime office crowd and more local residents not leaving Silver Spring on a 'work night'.

It's the same general issue with the downtown McDonalds and the block north and south of there on Colesville Rd. The demeanor of the people who loiter on the street are rude and unpleasant, and I see that area as something I need to just get through, rather than hang out, and that perception is going to keep new restaurants/hangouts away from opening up around that McDonalds. Those store fronts could be so much more than banks and tax preparation businesses, that could just as well locate on side streets or upper floors of the office towers (note, same issue with the outward stores on City Place).

Silver Spring is at a crossroads, it wants to keep redeveloping, without displacing existing residents and businesses. Noble cause, sounds great on paper and has my support, but the realist in me asks - I'm just not sure how compatible these two goals are. I'd love to see it work, but so many people are much more narrow minded than I am, and the people I know who live in Bethesda or NOVA still see downtown Silver Spring as 'ghetto' and not having any destinations worth visiting for. I'm glad to see the continued list of new businesses coming, probably a result of the thousands of new higher end rental units recently built/being built/proposed. Hopefully the new retail and housing can lift office rental rates enough to re-start the office development pipeline to keep a mix of uses in town.

Anonymous said...

that mcdonalds IS ghetto

Anonymous said...

They're opening another 7-11 where La Prima used to be on Wayne Ave. Finally we can go get Slurpees without getting stabbed.

Craig said...

Gull said: "Silver Spring is at a crossroads, it wants to keep redeveloping, without displacing existing residents and businesses".

Actually, residents and businesses have been displaced over recent years. The residential rents in downtown Silver Spring have increased significantly enough to drive out modest income households. The new luxury apartment buildings are no where near affordable for folks making under $75,000 in annual income. This is an incredibly high threshold if you factor national median rents.

I sincerely doubt family-owned, independent businesses can afford to invest in downtown Silver Spring. The commercial rents are simply too high. This is why national and global corporate retail or restaurant chains can plunk money on space in Silver Spring. The rents don't hurt their billion dollar revenue streams too much.

The obnoxious kids hanging around McDonalds or on Ellsworth do not live in downtown Silver Spring. In fact, most of them arrive in Silver Spring via Metro rail and bus from northeast DC, Wheaton, upper Silver Spring and PG County.

Thanks to gentrification, downtown Silver Spring demographics are trending more whiter and wealthier. The "ghetto" perception stems from the legacy of Silver Spring as a blighted inner-suburb, minority-populated, crime-ridden locale from the 1970s and 1980s. Watching groups of black teens walking up Colesville Road on a Saturday night, keeps that perception alive. In fact, those kids are escaping REAL ghettos of Georgia Ave., DC and western PG County for something more stimulating and SAFE like downtown Silver Spring. How many trendy retail stores and mega cineplexes are in their neighborhoods? How about spaces to skateboard or ice skating rinks?

I don't share the hostility of the locals against black and Latino kids visiting DTSS from whatever shithole neighborhood they are from. Honestly, I think some of this hostility has a racial prejudice tint but most grown ups just don't like teenagers, period.

If local governments can replicate DTSS projects in the Brightwood and Petworth areas in DC., in Hyattsville, MD and in Langley Park, MD then the teenagers won't flock to downtown Silver Spring anymore. We crabby, prejudiced older people can finally hang out on weekends in peace.

Anonymous said...

Well said, Craig.

Also who the eff cares if "the people I know who live in Bethesda or NOVA still see downtown Silver Spring as 'ghetto' and not having any destinations worth visiting for". Maybe if we weren't economically vibrant I'd consider trying to lure "those people" to DTSS, but we're doing plenty well on our own. I'm way past having an inferiority complex when it comes to Bethesdian opinion of us.

Jim said...


Pretty much agree with one small exception.

When a skateboarder nearly hits me because they aren't paying attention or can't land a basic trick and I have to jump out of the way, I really, really have a sudden urge to bump them and send them flying. And this is on the sidewalks of main streets (E-W Hwy for one).

Also totally agree on the BB&P rationale being a complete joke. I'll bet the boat and jet ski he bought with that gov contractor money in Shirlington is pretty awesome, though...

Anonymous said...

I don't mind all the Ethiopian restaurants, but another 7-11 store appears to be opening next to Subway sandwich shop. I think that's the 7th location in DTSS borders. That's just crazy...

Anonymous said...

"another 7-11 store appears to be opening next to Subway sandwich shop"

Yep, there is. I think that's a perfect spot for one (crappy, basement location), but am hoping this means another location will be closing its doors. There's a serious lack of vacant retail available for newcomers. Thankfully, a few of the construction projects on deck have retail components.

Jenny said...

Craig, thanks so much for that comment. Was a bit disturbed by the not-so-veiled racism in some of the previous comments. Holy shit, people. Brown/black kids do not mean criminals.

I come from a truly multicultural city so Silver Spring immediately felt like home to me and I have never once encountered a single problem walking in downtown Silver Spring at night or on the weekends.


Elysian said...

I don't want to promote racism, but do want to point out that unruly teenagers and large groups of people with foul language loitering don't make for the best environment. It rarely keeps me off Ellsworth, or even Georgia, but its unpleasant to have to walk around or through large groups of people who hog the sidewalk or who are screaming foul things at one another.

I understand that there are people who come here to enjoy our businesses in a safer environment than their own. I hope that they continue to do so, I just don't like it when they yell the F word at the top of their lungs. Whatever color a person is, that kind of behavior is obnoxious. Though I do recognize that where a lot of these kids come from, that kind of behavior is probably more normalized. That doesn't mean I have to appreciate it.

For what its worth, I voted for Other - Rising Rents. My rent has gone up 8% a year for the last 4 years. Rents are more expensive in DC, but at least there's real rent control instead of MoCo's useless voluntary guidelines.

Anonymous said...

"Though I do recognize that where a lot of these kids come from, that kind of behavior is probably more normalized." That's cool to hate teenagers (don't all older people always hate younger people, since like the beginning of time?) but this racist/classist stuff doesn't make much sense when factually speaking a lot of the commotion on Ellsworth is from obviously middle/upper class kids running around or on skateboards.

Personally, I don't care what these kids do - Ellsworth/the civic center area is exactly the type of place that's for everyone to use for community gathering and teens acting like teens is natural, healthy, and what all of us used to do. Granted, I'm not especially old and grouchy yet so I imagine down the line I'll hate on kids acting like kids more and more. I just hope I'm not wearing racist/classist colored glasses at that point.

Anonymous said...

lol@the typical "it's racist" when anyone complains about ghetto idiots doing ghetto things.

Go hang out at the Mcdonalds or 7-11/that street on 29 from 11pm -3am on a Friday and Saturday night.

Enjoy your "diversity"

Meanwhile in reality there are plenty of other areas in Silver spring that have diversity of all races without idiot punk kids doing idiot things.

Anonymous said...

lol@the typical idiot who says it isn't about race and then uses ghetto twice in the same sentence. Of course some people on here are making it about race, and no, it isn't the people pointing out the racism. Either grow up and join the adult conversation or shut your mouth.

Anonymous said...

And for the record, pointing out classism or ageism isn't problematic either, though you seem to not take issue with that anyways (for whatever, nonsensical reason). Having an adult conversation on the topic is productive. It's unfortunate some people are incapable of doing so for whatever reason.

Anonymous said...

yes, there is classism and ageism. That's fine, no one was defending that point.

Also ghetto is not an exclusive term to black or latino minorities. Sorry. And it's not inherently racist PC patrol. Grow up.

Adult conversations involve pointing out the facts on the ground: that some people in a certian corner of silver spring are causing trouble.

Other people of the same race and demographics are NOT causing any trouble. So clearly pointing out both those things makes the commentary racist.

It's unbelievable how quick the PC bridgade is to call racism or take offense for everyone else at anything that might point out a harsh reality.

Again: try hanging out at that Mcdonalds from 10-3am on Friday/Saturday. Get back to us on how nice that is and how people are racist for pointing out that the area and that block are terrible because of ignorant pathetic people who hang out there.

Anonymous said...

And for the record: I dont want unruly redneck white trash idiots from Buckwild roaming the streets of DTSS either- I'd complain about that too.

Unruly is unruly; criminal is criminal. Doesn't matter who the race is acting ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

Racism? Where? I didn't come across one racist comment on this blog. The fact that the majority of teenagers that are being discussed happen to be black/latino or come from the "ghetto" (maybe not the best choice of words, but you know the person is referencing an unsafe area of town) does NOT mean there is a "hint" of racism in the comment. This is an absurd conclusion to reach. I agree with the commenator about the unruly teens. When I have to stop some kid from pushing my girlfriend off of the curb and into the street because she made an unsatisfactor effort to move out of the punk's way, that's a legitimate problem. Stop calling things racist when they aren't. While your "racist" charge levied seems to work because the person who says the supposed "racist" thing is immediately put on the defensive, it's a classes, hypersensitive comment that allows you to be in the supposed high ground. It's ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

"And for the record: I dont want unruly redneck white trash idiots from Buckwild roaming the streets of DTSS either- I'd complain about that too"

Exactly, it's annoying to have unruly people around and these types of people would also qualify as unruly if they were around causing problems. Again, doesn't mean racism, it means that they just happen to be the race of the people causing the problem.

Gull said...

@ Anonymous 12:06 and 12:13

Thank you for making that distinction that it's not about anyone's race, it's about their demeanor when in a public place. I tried to be very articulate that I was not singling out anyone class, race or other 'group' in my previous comments, because i've seen people from just about all physical descriptions imaginable who were behaving poorly in public. How can someone not see there is a negative externality from the negative behavior. While I don't think most people posting on this blog are 'racist' or 'prejudiced' (besides the few that pre-judge people as being racist without understanding the ability to make objective observed comments and not have to tie some sort of hate into it), you bet most real-estate arms of businesses are making pre-judgement about Silver Spring. To everyone who wishes there was more to do, part of the problem may still be a lack of enough people, another may be the perceived clientele who patronize business here.


It is apparent that many of the existing residents and businesses of Silver Spring are being forced out, the master plan for here (and Wheaton) gives lip service to wanting to retain existing retail/residents/character while transforming the downtown into an urban vibrant place. The point that rents are too high and only do attract wealthier professionals is exactly the contradiction that has placed Silver Spring at the crossroads. I'd question if we would be better off excepting the eventual fate, rather than prolonging the change.

I understand many of the people that everyone is blogging about right now are not residents of the immediate area, and are taking advantage of the centralized location and transportation network, but the effect is the same. Seems to be there are already 2 destination hubs forming in Hyattsville now, along with the rising of Petworth and Wheaton. Maybe given more time and people will stop coming to Silver Spring to hang out who are not from here? Wait, that doesn't sound like a good idea either.

Anonymous said...

Gull- don't worry a lot of us understand what you are saying: classless is classless.

Unfortunately there are a few commentators on this blog (one douche in particular) that are hypersensitive and love being on the moral authority high ground and get offended at every term that they don't approve of.

Ironically these people would not last 10 minutes living in Suitland Maryland.

Crying Racism is an effective way to derail any commentary and make it about the offended parties moral authority even if there was no racism there. The moral authority will then get to ignore or belittle or tangent off of your very real complaints/statements and move the discussion into how we should all be more "inclusive".

Of course by "inclusive" they mean talking about being inclusive not actually living it. Because as I said these people would not last long in an actual bad part of town.

Anonymous said...

Btw, *I* am one of the people advocating for nightlife. But guess what? I can still be for nightlife and against idiots wandering the street robbing people. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Carry on crying racism fools.

Craig said...

Clearly, the ReBEL (Republicans Behind Enemy Lines) crowd is frothing at the mouth about racial accusations in addition to age and socio-economic class discrimination.

Look, just about 99.99 percent of the white population in America (including myself) has made prejudicial decisions based on someone's race or ethnicity. I don't deny that I have stereotyped blacks, Asians and the like.

What I am saying is if you are a white resident of Silver Spring, you are going to react differently when you see 5 white teens walking up Colesville as compared to 5 black teens or 5 Latino teens. Chances are that your guard will be UP when the 5 black teens approach you compared to a more relaxed reaction when 5 white teens cross your path. Bottom line is that you will be far more tense in the presence of minority teens as a white person.

Why is that? Because young black males are associated with thievery, violence, drugs, gangs. It is drilled into our heads by the corporate media, by Hollywood cinema, or perhaps by friends or family members. Perhaps we see Montgomery County cops line up black male teens in handcuffs outside the McDonalds and we (white people) think to ourselves, "See...there you go!". Biases turn into "reality" and biases get confirmed. See, there is no racism here.

The bottom line: the belly-aching about teens would not be as prevalent if the teens were mis-behavin' white kids. Like I wrote in the first post, I think many Silver Spring residents are just crotchety, old bastards who are not fond of youth. Maybe older people are just bitter about how life turned out. Who knows.

But the "ghetto" references to McDonald's on Colesville or the public space near Ellsworth in many comments give a real solid clue into the mindset of people. It's NOT JUST about the loud and obnoxious kids: it's more about the KIND of loud and obnoxious kids you see in Silver Spring.

Anonymous said...

The commenters on this board need to spend more time in Gallery Place on any night of the week. Anything you see in Silver Spring pales in comparison. Yet people still flock to Gallery Place and seem to be able to deal with the obnoxious teenagers in that area.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of people who hate any changes to SS after 1950, it sounds like they got the WaPo to write an article expressing their viewpoint:

Anonymous said...

Craig- sorry I'm not white.

So am I making racial statement still?

Anonymous said...

Craig- I've already covered that. I would not want to be around obnoxious white kids acting foolish.

I would call them "white trash" instead of "ghetto".

yet you apparently did not read anything I wrote and still go on the racial accusation. Really?

So lets see, I am not white and have already plainly stated that white kids acting like idiots would piss me off royally.

am I still being racial?

(Not even gonna touch that republican comment, ASSume much?)

Anonymous said...

"am I still being racial?"

Um, yes. You literally just admitted you used the word ghetto to specify that you're degrading the black teens on Ellsworth and not the white teens. You're racist and being hypersensitive to all of us pointing out that obvious fact is weird.

Ellsworth teens (black, white, poor, rich, 13 or 18) don't bother me. If they bother you then there is, literally, the other 99% of DTSS that caters towards an older crowd instead of a mixed crowd. Everyone good with that? Good.

one4all said...

I just wanna point out that ALL races have their loud/ignorant types (especially among those of lower socio-economic status).

Whites: usually from rural areas and live in trailer parks

Blacks: usually from inner-city urban areas (the so-called "ghetto")

Hispanics: usually from poorer suburban communities eg. Langley Park

Asians: not so obvious, mostly because the ones that could afford to emigrate here are wealthier/more intelligent, but they some do exist on the West Coast and the entire nation of the PR of China is based on ignorance

So it's not just Blacks/Hispanics that are loud and obnoxious. It's only because Silver Spring is in an urban area it seems that way. If you travel 100 miles north or south I can guarantee you that the many of the mountain hicks of Western MD/Central PA/All of WV and beyond, and the Southern rednecks of Virginia and beyond behave just as obnoxiously (if not more so). You can even take a short trip down University to see how "well-behaved" the middle-class white students at UMD are.

The common denominator here is wealth not race, although the saying "you can take a person out of the ghetto/trailer park/barrio, but can't take the ghetto/trailer park/barrio out of the person," still applies. eg. Britney Spears, many new "Hip-Hop" artists.

Personally I despise obnoxious/rude behavior no matter who it's coming from.

Anonymous said...

on4all...doesnt matter what you say. according to mr. "everything is racist" you're being racist too.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous troll, strikes again.

Anonymous said...

"People still flock to Gallery Place"?

No, not this "people," ever since a black theater employee cursed me and my "shitty white ass" out while I was sitting on the toilet.

I don't know why she felt she had to say those things to a middle-aged white woman who was just trying to pee before the movie.

No, no more Gallery Place, no thank you.

Anonymous said...

anon- 11:43 am. Keep crying and complaining about racism. Everything offends you. sad.

Again, please go hang out in suitland. Get back to us on how diverse it is and how you love it there.

Rebecca said...

On another note, it appears that United Therapeutics is planning to raze the parking garage at the corner of Colesville Rd & Spring St, further expanding their complex. Signs were put up over the weekend announcing a public meeting in a few weeks to present the preliminary plans.

Anonymous said...

that will make the parking situation in downtown even more painful than it already is...but i guess its a good thing if a business is doing well and expanding

Anonymous said...

There were only like 30 spots open in that garage anyway- but it will absolutely kill the view of the residents of Cole Spring Plaza

Anonymous said...

Hmm, I thought the UT expansion plans were many years (8-12) down the line. That'd be epic good news if they were moving that timeline up.

In case the guy who's worried about parking doesn't know - the garage in question has been effectively vacant for many years after being deemed structurally unsound.

Anonymous said...

What a surprise. Lots more issues found with the Transit Center. Whoda guessed?

You can kiss that September 2013 opening goodbye.

Rebecca said...

Speaking as a resident of Cole Spring Plaza whose apartment faces the garage in question, I'd much rather look at a presumably well-designed United Therapeutics building than that ugly 1970s parking garage. I doubt I'll still live in CSP by the time the building's finished, but it'd be awesome if there was some retail in the ground floor too. With the adjacent hotels and apartment buildings I would think some kind of restaurant would be supportable.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to add another option to the poll: Lack of quality beer and wine sales. We went to a Whole Foods in Virginia over the weekend. They had a draft beer bar. In the Whole Foods. With delicious-looking pours. Again- not only did they have a great selection of beer and wine for purchase, you could pull up a stool in the middle of your shopping and have a frosty one.

That is all.

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Obat Alami Kelamin Bernanah Perbedaan yang kedua terletak pada cairan nanah yang dikeluarkan saat buang air kecil. Pasien gonore atau kencing nanah akan mengeluarkan cairan nanah ketika mereka buang air kecil, sedangkan pasien sipilis atau raja singa tidak mengalami hal ini. , Mengobati Kemaluan Bernanah secara Alami Banyak orang menderita berbagai macam penyakit dan untuk bisa lepas dari rasa sakit yang mereka rasakan mereka mencari pengobatan yang terbaik yang bisa cepat membantu menghilangkan pennyakit yang mereka derita dari tubuh. dari berbagai penyakit yang ada, kencing nanah merupakan salah satu jenis penyakit yang menular.
Obat Herbal Kelamin Bernanah Cairan nanah pada pasien gonore tidak hanya muncul saat buang air kecil saja, tetapi juga dapat keluar melalui bintik-bintik merah yang muncul di kulit pasien. Perbedaan yang ketiga terletak pada ruam merah yang biasa muncul pada pasien sipilis. , Mengobati Kemaluan Bernanah Gonore secara Alami Penyakit ini dijumpai pada wanita dan pria walau frekuensinya lebih banyak pada wanita.seseorang yang menderita penyakti kencing nanah ini tentu menginginkan penyembuhan. Para ahli menemukan bahwa belakangan bakteri yang menyebabkan timbulnya penyakit ini semakin tahan terhadap antibiotic.

Kassie Edwards said...


I liked reading your comments. I used to have the same sentiments towards the teenagers--in fact I still do. But reading your comment about the youth looking for a safe way to hang out outside of their "shitty" neighborhoods put things into perspective.

Im probably more ageist than prejudice tho. lol Thanks for writing.

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